When you have the chance to chat with the co-founder of a VC supercharger about two of your favorite topics, SMS and funding, you do it.
Tom Sheahan, our CEO, and Aakash Shah, the co-founder of neonVest discuss a wide range of topics from: SMS and the changing regulations. Should it or will regulations like these start popping up in other communication platforms and social media? Should there be autonomy or accountability?
To: Fundraising in the changing times, pre- and post-COVID and how personal connection can make the difference.
Take a listen and you judge Tom’s Australian accent for yourself.
TRANSCRIPT:
NeonVest:
Welcome to the NeonVest podcast. I’m here with Tom from Red Oxygen today, and we’re gonna talk about some cool things going on on the startup and VC side. Tom, it’s great to have you here with me.
Tom Sheahan:
Good to be here.
NeonVest:
Love what you’re doing at Red Oxygen, and would love to just get a better sense as to how about you just give an intro to the business and, and primarily what your vision was behind building this, and if there are any positive externalities you’re trying to imbibe in our society right now.
Tom Sheahan:
Well, I started application to person messaging 23 years ago in Australia. We were the first ones to do it. And we were literally delivering text messages off Nokia 5110s off a laptop because the SMSCs weren’t open yet, and there were no c there’s no CPAs provider, there was no Twilio’s and so forth at the time. And we grew in, in Europe and Asia, and for about a decade, the most of the, the Americans, the US market didn’t understand text messaging because it wasn’t available. So there was no interoperability. And, and the US had deregulated their market early on. And so there was no standardization here. You had CDMA, you had TDMA, you had IDEN, and very little GSM. It was 1900 Voice Stream at the time, which is now T-Mobile. And, and I fell in love with text messaging as a great way of delivering information.
I was working on a project for Foxtel in Australia. They were spending $8 to deliver, “Hey, we’re a cancellation notice. Hey, we’re cutting off your, your cable.” And I was like, why can’t you send that via text? Right? Had this epiphany, come on. And I, I was working for an IVR company InnerVoice, but they’re out of Dallas. And so the people in Texas had no idea what text messaging was, and they weren’t using, wasn’t part of their life. And, and I saw an opportunity to build text messaging solutions for businesses. And, and that really came to fruition. And now we’ve got customers in over 50 different countries and 300,000 users. And and our US is our number one market. So I, I came to back to the US I’m an American citizen, but I was living in Australia and saw a unique opportunity that was happening in Europe and Asia, not happening in the US because of, of lack of regulation. So and now we see another, another, another…
NeonVest:
I see that you haven’t really picked up an Australian accent, though. <Laugh>
Tom Sheahan:
Ah Mate, I can put it on my talk Australian. Mumble <laugh>. I, yeah, I could speak Aussie. And I love the Australians. They’re so fun.
NeonVest:
They’re amazing. They’re brilliant.
Tom Sheahan:
Also, from a cultural perspective too, and this is gonna tie into the investor community, like the Aussies always, they never wanna be first at things, right? They’re, they’re happy looking at Europe or the US to say, okay, hey, they’re screwing up things. We’ll go this way. They’re screwing up things. We’re gonna go this the other way. And the US Australia adopted the European standard, which is GSM, so they were much more advanced with text messaging and so forth because they adopted the European standard. But what’s ha- and and the reason why I’m bringing this up is it ties into what’s happening now in the US. So we see another billion dollar opportunity with the campaign registry. So the campaign registry is the US carriers requiring every application to person messaging person using it to be registered with the campaign registry. And when you register with the campaign registry, you have to register, what is your business?
What is your EIN, what is your message content? What is your website? What is your address? And, and then you are vetted. And if you, and then once you are vetted, you are and you pass, you are signed a campaign, registered id, and then you have to pay monthly campaign fees, additional per message fees. And if you don’t register your traffic can get blocked. Or you can get fined $10,000 per text message. And what came out just this, this morning is now like AT&T, instead of paying, you know, a third of a cent message, you’re gonna pay a one and a half cents per message. So let’s say you’re paying a half a cent, so your costs are gonna triple and quadruple with text messaging, right? So it, it was super cheap and, and a lot of the CPaaS providers are really focused on selling to the developer.
And the problem is the developer doesn’t care about this problem ‘cuz they’re like, “Hey, I got it to work. I’m good. I’m onto the next thing.” And this is really a business owner problem. And so we see a huge opportunity for us because we understand the space better than anybody else to address this billing, this is an end user billing compliance and delivery problem. And we’re kind of pivoting to become a managed service provider for SMS to provide all those ISVs and SMBs the ability to, to get them registered on the campaign registery to make sure they, they send a text message to T-Mobile every 60 days. Like, and because this is self-regulation which we’re really hoping the FCC will take this over because self-regulation doesn’t work like T-Mobile has, has arbitrarily said, “Hey, if you don’t send a message on our network in 60 days, we’re gonna fine you $250.”
Well, which hair salon in the United States actually knows what network their customers are on, and the reason why we see this billion dollar opportunity, but with our current staffing levels and current revenue levels, we’re not gonna be able to handle this influx of customers. So that’s why we are, are going to contacted Neon to contact VCs saying, “Hey, we need capital because we might fall over cuz we’re gonna get too many customers.” because this is a major problem that’s gonna happen. And this, the campaign registry is just starting in the US but you have other countries like Australia and Europe are looking at The Campaign Registry to see whether they want to implement something similar to this to combat spam, right? Inter carrier fees are not new to the rest of the world. They’re new to the US but the campaign registry is new to the world and how we manage digital regulation is of the utmost important if we’re gonna save the Western world, right?
Because you go online and you don’t know whether you’re talking to somebody from Moscow or somebody from Iowa, right? And, until these platforms are held accountable, which is essentially what The Campaign Registry is doing, is requiring us to be held accountable and liable for the text messages we send on our platforms.
NeonVest:
Sure.
Tom Sheahan:
And, and since under the last administration text messaging is considered a data service, we could literally sue the FCC to say, “Hey, our data is being discriminated against and Facebook’s and Twitter’s is not.” Right?
NeonVest:
It’s an interesting it’s an interesting thing you bring up because I mean, honestly, a lot of people today would be like, look, what is a text? Even <laugh>, like, I mean, how many people are even texting? Really? And it’s very easy to kind of get lost in today’s methods of communication, right? Yeah. Like everything from I’ll, I’ll just DM you on Instagram to..
Tom Sheahan:
Sure.
NeonVest:
Um yeah, I mean I’ll use, I’ll use WhatsApp or whatever, right? And so it’s interesting that there are certain elements, I mean even outside of text, but text included that people aren’t thinking about, but that are key sort of infrastructural functions in this broader society. And I mean, particularly interesting is the point around regulation too, right? Like, I mean, I mean, most businesses are definitely not thinking, okay, well I have, I’m regulated to send out like a text or understand where and who is using these these services.
So that’s, I, yeah, I mean, and, and I would think that honestly, like we use, I mean, I was looking at our kind of transaction list or income statement recently, and we probably have over 50 different subscriptions, Twilio included, I saw that you’re a partner with them, but even outside of that right? Calendly, HubSpot like Carta and, and a bunch of others. And, and I think the, the point is really that you need a lot of these tools outside of your current business just to help automate and structure some of the things that need to be done. And so I think it’s great, it’s a great positioning in that sense.
Tom Sheahan:
Yeah, And, and, and also like text messaging is still the most ubiquitous form of communication mankind has ever known, right? I can send a text message to 7 billion devices in the planet, there’s only a billion PCs. And, and then if you get to the smartphones, you don’t know what apps they have installed, right? And so in one market, WhatsApp might be very prolific in another market, it may be Messenger or it may be, and so, but everyone texts, right? And, and so it’s still the common denominator. And will this regulation, you know, proliferate into WhatsApp? Yes, definitely. Right? But you’re starting to see these, these media companies because they don’t want to get regulated, you know, trying to assist with stopping spam, trying to assist with like, “hey, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, we’re, they’re, they’re authenticated user and so forth” because they don’t want this to happen, right? But I, if we’re gonna have a free society and have a good public forum, I’m not telling you what people can and can’t say, but if you are going to say something in a public forum, identify yourself. And that platform needs to be held accountable as well as the originator of it needs to be held accountable, right?
NeonVest:
Yeah. I mean, it’s a, it’s a very useful and honestly, principle of the concept. And I mean, I completely agree with you. At the same time, if you look at some of the forums that exist today, obviously Twitter, most people have their name attached to it. But Reddit for instance, I mean, I guess one of the reasons why Reddit is so prolific is simply because I have complete anonymity. And I know many of my friends, in fact specifically don’t tell me their their user names because like, honestly, sometimes people, and, and I mean, yeah, I think, I think society at large has that urge to not necessarily reveal themselves and themselves behind a particular thought or thought process. And yeah. And I think in certain, certain verticals and certain applications, it’s very important that you reveal who you are before you say what you think. Because otherwise….
Tom Sheahan:
The platform needs to be held accountable. The platform we hold the LA Times accountable, if they print a malicious story about you, you can sue them for libel, right? And then they fire the, the, the, the writer, right? Who, who who dug up some dirt on you. That was false, right? Okay.
NeonVest:
Yeah.
Tom Sheahan:
So, but they are media companies at their heart, right? They’re social media companies, but they’re no different than broadcast and print, and they need to be held accountable for the the content they produce, right?
NeonVest:
Yep.
Tom Sheahan:
And if, if we are gonna be blocking traffic for people that aren’t registered or charging more for them, then they should too, right? So if you’re having unfair data is unfair data….
NeonVest:
I guess It’s, it’s a very interesting point you bring up. And honestly, the analogy just speaks to honestly where society is today versus where we were even a few years ago where, I mean, there’s so things, so many elements to this, right? Anything, even like a piece of libel, like you were talking about. It’s interesting. I mean, I was watching something the other day on Netflix basically, and it was, it was a false sort of rape accusation. And the guy, it’s, it’s a, it’s a documentary, no, it’s a movie, so it’s nothing, yeah. But point being that he wanted to get compensated for being pulled out of his office and having the entire office think that that was the case, and he was like, how can you compensate me for that? And I feel like it, because it was honestly false at the end of the day. And I think that that speaks to a broader thing when you bring up sort of what people can find on the internet and where things are going. I think, I guess stepping back from Red Oxygen for a second, like, where do you think this sort of, not just digital space, but digital information and kind of where, where, where are we headed towards? And I guess what, what is the state of affairs today from, from that perspective?
Tom Sheahan:
Well, I mean, you got, alright, regulation and laws always follow society, right? We didn’t have speed limits, we didn’t have seat belts with cars, right? It wasn’t until like, oh gosh, these things can kill people, right? Oh, wow, I can get killed in one of these things, right? Did we finally realize that, hey, you know, maybe we should have some speed limits. Maybe we should have some seat belts, right? And so it takes a while and, and I, I had the opportunity to meet with two different US senators, Senator Klobuchar, and Senator Masto, and, and briefed them on this issue. And both of them were shocked that, that this was happening in the text messaging space. But were enlightened, and the FCC is gonna start to, to put more and more regulations on this, but if it’s happening in the text messaging space, this needs to proliferate into all data, right?
Like instead of, you know, if you are gonna post online, identify yourself, right? And, and maybe that digital identity is stored on Reddit’s database, but if you print something false, I can get a court order to go to Reddit to say, Hey, who is, you know, John Doe 32, right? Who is he? Right? Because he said some malicious things about me that was spread millions of times and I lost my job and my wife and blah, blah, blah. You know, we were very naive when the internet started, right? We’re like, oh, Facebook kumbaya, the world’s gonna come together, the Arab Spring and blah, blah, blah. Well, it didn’t take long then…
NeonVest:
Honestly, I think I think, look, Sapients pointed to this, but I think humans have always known that negative stories and negative media is much more attractive and interesting than positive stuff.
Tom Sheahan:
But yellow journalism was a lot harder back in the day when you had to hand ’em a piece of paper, right? Yeah. A pamphlet, right? Or I had to print something off, it cost me money, you know, and I had to hand it to you on the streets of New York, right?
NeonVest:
Yeah, no, I agree with you. It’s, it’s too easy to get into the hands and minds of people. And I think part of that is honestly why this tech renaissance has happened is because you can reach more people, right? And I guess the underlying critical element of a large part of tech and startups and where we are with VC today is basically the fact that, look, what can you provide way more people who are today connected? And honestly, one large part of NeonVests, as you would know. Now our ecosystem is pretty large. We have about 500 superchargers on and and a number of sort of early stage founders. But the point is to come back to connections, honestly.
Tom Sheahan:
Yeah.
NeonVest:
And and virtual as well as offline. And I think yeah, and I think, yeah, part of, part of what needs to be done is come back in certain ways to certain elements that we’re working in the past recently.
NeonVest:
I mean, I bought a book from Stanford’s bookstore called Dopamine, and it talks about the actual pain after dopamine pleasures. Like, like anything from sort of DMing endless scrolling to Netflix through whatever, whatever these constructs are today, eventually leads to negative sort of impulses. And so, yeah, I mean, I agree with kind of like that broader premise. And I guess just something now kind of a separate in terms of your own sort of journey as a founder, obviously having, having had a, had a career in the corporate world before this like what, what has the journey been like doing Red Oxygen? Have you have you gone out to market? What have interactions with kind of investors like, and how do they, how do they view this space? Is their impression more like, look, this is this is sort of digitizing an old industry. Is it like, look, let’s go back to early forms of communication and see if we can scale them up. How are, how are they thinking about it?
Tom Sheahan:
Well, we’re, we’re kind of we’re kind of a weird animal, right? So we’re a 23 year old company looking for outside investment, right? And, and that, that, that kicks a lot of the VCs out, right? They’re automatically, oh, you go through, you don’t fit our, you don’t fit our model, right? So, you know, I think, I think after we explain the problem to them and why there is a problem and why we are best suited, where our legacy isn’t a negative, but a positive because we can bill, you know, I, I met with one company that has 41,000 dental offices, right? And I said to him, I said, how, how are you dealing with this campaign registry, right? They said, oh, we’re busy registering all our 41,000 dentists, but they have no component of like, keeping track of how many text messages this dentist office sent versus this dentist office sent. I said, how are you paying for it? And they’re like, oh, we’re just going to eat it for six months and then figure out what our cost structure is. So I think there’s gonna be more and more of an appetite talking to the VCs as this becomes more and more of a problem. I kind of liken us to as like, we’re a Moderna and covid is about ready to happen
NeonVest:
<Laugh>. Yeah. I mean I think every VC would would wanna buy that that story because honestly, like you said, it’s quite interesting much of today there’s a specific model and type of company you have to be in order to get funded. A large part of our premise is A) that one of the key variables to some of that success is your network and how many people, you know, who’s willing to kind of validate you either from an investment perspective or make intros, stuff like that. And and there’s quite a few people that exist outside of this spectrum that is very readily funded. And yeah. And we honestly think that that’s sort of the bulk of the market, in fact, yet there is a lot of merit to those ideas, potential execution and all of that stuff.
And I think the second premise is, look, if you think about VC as as a business, it has not changed at all since one of the first few VCs, two in 20, maybe now it’s one and a half in 20. You still get deal by deal carry, you still get like fund level carry, you have LPs that are much larger money managers investing in these companies, the funds themselves, CapEx-light, high growth businesses, some type of sort of tech mode that I can get behind. Serial entrepreneur even better, can’t be more than sort of four or five years old. A hundred percent, 200% year on year growth minimum. It’s hilarious. I mean, it’s literally a, it’s a checkbox of a whole bunch of different…
Tom Sheahan:
Yeah and you’ve gotta fit those check boxes.
NeonVest:
And if you don’t, if you don’t fit a couple, the best part is I’ll have a, I’ll have a set rejection template, I’ll stick whichever you don’t fit in into that. So hey, so look, we loved it. It’s just, it’s a little too early for us right now. And like the, the specific growth growth metrics we’re looking for don’t, don’t really apply and boom, like there you go. Yeah. I mean,
Tom Sheahan:
But, but the best, you know, what, what founders forget is that there’s also a lot I mean, we, we raise capital from myself and from family and friends, but we also got a lot of assistance from the Australian government, right? They give us export marketing development grants, R and D tax credits, and there are a lot of countries around the world, whether it’s Singapore, Switzerland, New Zealand, that will fund your business, right? You know, you may not fit. I mean, a lot of these countries know that, you know, Australia for instance, they can’t continue their business model of ripping stuff out of the ground and selling it to China. That’s not gonna last 20, 30 years out, right? They have to develope an intelligent economy, and the government knows this, and then they’re investing in startups to do this, right? And so, you know, don’t always go to the, you know, certain route. You know, there are countries, and there are other programs too that, you know, in a lot of the VCs, they’re all kind of lemmings. They don’t really think for themselves. And, and they get into a mode and that’s how they made, and the best way to raise money is raise money from customers, right?
NeonVest:
Yeah. No, I agree.
Tom Sheahan:
And we may not raise capital because our revenues are increasing because, you know, we’ve had one of our largest customers triple their volume, right? So, hey man, they’re in gonna triple their check. So we like that.
NeonVest:
Yes. And, and it’s interesting. I mean, I think, honestly, I do believe that this will evolve. I think too many people are concentrated on too few startups. We have the highest rate of first time founders ever. We have the highest number of startups that have ever existed before, and there need to be new tools and infrastructure that that exist for them. Neonvest being one of them. And would love to hear just general thoughts on how you found the platform so far, whether you’ve gotten value out of it, met any cool people that might be useful to you.
Tom Sheahan:
I actually, I think, I think it’s been great. You know, you, you get a lot of bullshit in this space. You know, people, oh, welcome up to these vs. All, I’ll introduce you, right? And there’s a lot of con artists out there. And you guys are one of the groups that actually introduced us to, I don’t know, I don’t mean how many, we’ve had connections, probably 30, 30 meetings maybe a bit more, 30, 40 meetings. And some of them have turned out to be, you know, you know, we still have some progress with some of them, but they’ve been helpful, you know, and they’ve been good to redefine your pitch and if they’re all virtual, which is good, so you’re not traveling around the globe, you know, to meet this guy to get your 10 minutes with this person, and with Zoom and NeonVest, you can get introduced to a plethora of investors or people that can help you. So yeah, I think it’s one of the very few things that I’ve actually paid for that has produced results
NeonVest:
<Laugh>. No, that’s great to hear. Appreciate it. And yeah, I mean, that’s exactly what we’re going for. I think a large part of our growth actually came during Covid when we were like, look, no one can meet anyone at the moment. How do you still grow your network in a way that’s scalable? And I think one of the most important parts for us is a lot of people you have like instant gratification today where it’s like, I’ll give you five minutes of time or 10 minutes of time. We were like, look, honestly, unless you have 45 minutes an hour, you can’t build anything. And it’s not gonna be very fruitful. You can’t actually build a relationship or anything like that. And it’s one of the few things we’ve stuck by, I think it’d be very easy to chop it up and be like, you can pay like 40 bucks for like 10 minutes with someone very high up, but I’m not gonna add, add any value to anyone.
I guess from obviously your, your line of work where you’ve looked at probably all of the social media platforms and have broken each one down into its various pros and cons, every communication platform and every type of communication, right? Even verbal, honestly. And just speaking I guess we’re looking at a future now where you have generative ai recently, I had a colleague that was telling me there’s Agent GPT, which talks to Chat GPT, and basically gives it tasks, responds to those tasks with other questions, and and that kind of entire transcript of conversation plays out. There’s many other new things today. At the same time, we have completely other forms of communication, right? We have we have music as one way to connect to someone you have simply speaking to someone. I mean, I guess just this whole area of communication, if you think about it more as a concept, right? In the business, I’m just curious as to what new types of communications will we, will we think about will exist and how do you think we’ll, we’ll use them.
Tom Sheahan:
I think we also need to look at entertainment as well. And what we’re looking for, I think we’re looking for more authenticity, like real connection. You can even look at this as pre and post covid entertainment, right? Where the shows that are popular now are the ones that have real harsh conversations with themselves and with the world. I don’t think we’re gonna tolerate any laugh track or any superficial, and that’s gonna transpose and on the platforms that we use, right? And people are gonna want authenticity, authenticity from their shows, entertainment from their friends, their audiences. And I think that’s what we need to look for, right? And not necessarily the platform, right? I think, I think even like now you’re seeing Instagram kind of evolve where it was once everyone was, you know, Photoshopping their photos and blah, blah, blah, and posting how perfect their life is, and now people are migrating to like, oh, this is really me and I’m up, or, you know, Hey, I’m worried about this, or I’m, I’m having a day.
Or I’m, and they want that, they want that real connection. And then I think we’ll have these platforms, but will allow us to get together in real time and, and not rely on apps, right?
NeonVest:
Fair.
Tom Sheahan:
Because people need each other, right? Remote work, you know, I tell my people, yeah, you can work remotely, but get together once a week, hang out, go have lunch, go eat Indian food, right? Go connect, right? Because you need each other. We all need each other. We need those personal relationships, right? You know, whether it’s I’m on a swim team, whether it’s, you know, on a swim team and you’re making a stupid joke, right? With your friends, whatever. Like, we all need those human connections and the virtual world is a conduit. And we’re also gonna need balance, right? We’re gonna need regulation, right? And you know, is it banning social media for kids under 16? Probably a good idea. But if we require, you know, some form of government issued ID before they log onto their phone or the internet, you know what apps are gonna be a link, right? And letting you know, time constraints so parents can able to monitor, you know, how much time their kid is on these apps, right?
NeonVest:
Yep. No, I mean, I, I couldn’t agree with you more honestly. And it ties we’re doing right now.
Tom Sheahan:
I mean, can’t have, you can’t have Instagram or you get Instagram 15 minutes a day. Boom.
NeonVest:
Yep.
Tom Sheahan:
Gone.
NeonVest:
And look, we’ve started, in fact, like, I mean, I know the whole core product is, is virtual meetings, but we’ve started doing in-person events and networking receptions, panel discussions and networking events, I think is a key part. And I mean, you’ve seen it bounce back after Covid. People really crave sort of these in in-person meetings. Yeah. Experiences, interactions. I mean, how much can you do with your phone? Honestly, I think the only thing HER pointed out, which is that movie, is that honestly, it’s a very depressing thought that you live with your phone. That is sort of while, I mean, generative AI may, may be on the forefront of like, oh, this may be an actual animate being, the reality is it’s not. And it can’t ever replace sort of the desire just for human touch, human connection. And that’s a great, I mean, that’s a great sort of finishing point. I want to get to the rapid fire. But any last comments on, on anything, honestly
Tom Sheahan:
If you’re an entrepreneur, sign up for NeonVest, I think they’ve been super helpful. It’s probably the best money you’ll spend. There’s a lot of charlatans out there that will sell you a bunch of crap. They’re not gonna deliver. These guys do deliver. And also look at other sources of funding. Look at government grants. You know, and if, if you can’t raise money from your customers, you can’t sell a product, maybe you’re on the wrong path, right? I think the heyday, you know, you know, Silicon Valley is, is they’re kind of lemings, you know, and then they’re all about, you know, who can spend more money lavishly? Oh, I got Venus and Serena in our user group party and we’re gonna have group massages and like, no, no, no, no, no. Like, sit down with the basics. What are you selling? How can you make money? And yes. Treat your people fairly and, and, and honorably, and you can do that within reason. Right?
NeonVest:
Fair, fair
Tom Sheahan:
Be sensible. And think about how you can make money, not raise money, but make money.
NeonVest:
Fantastic. Tom. It was, that was, that was awesome and a lot of interesting insights. I’m gonna spend about two minutes on some rapid fire. Hope you don’t mind.
Tom Sheahan:
Right, sure.
NeonVest:
Um rapid fire means immediate responses, so don’t think too much. And and yeah, let’s get started. Most important value
Tom Sheahan:
Balance,
NeonVest:
Biggest climate problem that you think
Tom Sheahan:
Warming, rising sea levels
NeonVest:
Most commonly used. Such social network or app on your phone?
Tom Sheahan:
Probably Instagram.
NeonVest:
Who’s your mentor?
Tom Sheahan:
Peter Shore.
NeonVest:
Money or power?
Tom Sheahan:
Money.
NeonVest:
Favorite law or policy?
Tom Sheahan:
Well, I would like Universal Healthcare, but we don’t have that, but we don’t have it over here. <Laugh>
NeonVest:
Fair. Favorite beer
Tom Sheahan:
Chechva, which is Budweiser in Czech Republic.
NeonVest:
<Laugh>. Interesting. awesome. No, I mean, that’s it. Thank you Tom. I think you’re building a great product. Anyone who doesn’t know about it has to use it. You need to think about structuring your your text messaging and optimizing it really for your business. With that, it was lovely to speak to you, Tom, and and look forward to having you as a continued customer.
Tom Sheahan:
We’ll go to one of your events. We’re actually hosting one in New York in May.
NeonVest:
It’s very cool. Very cool. Well, it’s great to have you as a customer too, Tom. And and thanks. Thanks again great speaking to you. And we’ll chat soon. That was the Neon Vest podcast. If you wanna learn more, go to neon vest.com or follow us on LinkedIn and Instagram.